Génitif & Génitif saxon
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Génitif & Génitif saxon
Bonjour à tous,
Avant d'entrer un peu dans le détail du Saxon genitive anglais, voyons une introduction avec le génitif ordinaire.
-> la page de Wikipédia relative au Génitif : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A9nitif (page très intéressante qui parle de différentes langues européennes qui ont ce cas de déclinaison)
-> Cours d'allemand - Leçon 42 - Le génitif saxon 1 - http://everything2.com/title/Saxon+genitive
-> Cours d'allemand - Leçon 82 - Le génitif saxon 2 - http://cronimus.free.fr/cours/lec82.htm
Avant d'entrer un peu dans le détail du Saxon genitive anglais, voyons une introduction avec le génitif ordinaire.
-> la page de Wikipédia relative au Génitif : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A9nitif (page très intéressante qui parle de différentes langues européennes qui ont ce cas de déclinaison)
En linguistique, le génitif est un cas grammatical utilisé pour marquer un complément de nom. Il exprime notamment la possession dans de nombreuses langues (voir possessif (cas)).
Il peut être formé en changeant la terminaison du nom possesseur (comme en latin), en ajoutant une lettre à la fin de ce nom (comme en anglais et en néerlandais), en modifiant l'article défini (comme en allemand) ou en utilisant une préposition qui marque la possession (comme en français). Il faut entendre cette notion de « possession » au sens large, puisqu'elle inclut généralement la relation de partie au tout : Mary's house et Mary's leg (la maison de Marie / la jambe de Marie) ne réfèrent pas au même type de relation ; ainsi que les relations parentales (Mary's mother = la mère de Marie).
Il peut aussi, comme dans les langues slaves, par exemple, prendre un sens de partitif (p.ex.: выпить стакaн воды, boire un verre d'eau). Cela provient du fait que les nombres fonctionnent (ou ont fonctionné à un moment) comme des noms (cf. "une douzaine d'œufs").
...
Génitif saxon
Il se forme de manière analogue au génitif ordinaire pour les noms communs ou les noms propres employés avec l'article. Pour les noms propres employés sans article, il se forme, à tous les genres (même au féminin), par l'adjonction d'un -(e)s.
Il est antéposé et se substitue à l'article (défini) du nom qu'il détermine.
Très utilisé en langue poétique, il ne s'emploie plus en langue courante que pour les noms propres sans article.
Par ailleurs, pour ces noms, le génitif formé par l'adjonction de la marque -(e)s peut également, contrairement à l'anglais par exemple, être postposé. Ainsi l'expression : le chien d'Anne peut se dire : - Annas Hund : génitif saxon (cf. en anglais "Ann's dog" ; NB : en allemand pas d'apostrophe avant le s), noter l'absence d'article défini devant le nom déterminé ; - ou bien der Hund Annas.
-> Cours d'allemand - Leçon 42 - Le génitif saxon 1 - http://everything2.com/title/Saxon+genitive
-> Cours d'allemand - Leçon 82 - Le génitif saxon 2 - http://cronimus.free.fr/cours/lec82.htm
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Please feel free to point out big mistakes in my messages in a foreign language. Thanks to your remarks, I'll be able to improve my level.
PS: Pls note that I chose American English for my vocabulary, grammar, spelling, culture, etc.
Re: Génitif & Génitif saxon
Bonsoir à tous,
Je croyais bien connaître le génitif saxon mais plus je lis, plus ça se complique !
Quelques bonnes pages :
-> Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_genitive et un historique intéressant du Saxon Genitive
-> une page "Saxon genitive" de Everything2 - http://everything2.com/title/Saxon+genitive qui rappelle les cas :
- The English4ToDay Blog - Saxon Genitive : A Detective Story - http://www.blogs.english4today.com/?p=45
Une chose bien intéressante :
(Time expressions / Other expressions / The possessive is also used to refer to shops, restaurants, churches and colleges)
- The English4ToDay - POSSESSIVE PRONOUNS AND POSSESSIVE ADJECTIVES - http://www.english4today.com/englishgrammar/grammar/Determiners6.cfm
- forum UsingEnglish - http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/116477-saxon-genitive.html
- forum WordReference - http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=3634
On peut, encore une fois, voir le sérieux de ce forum !
Je croyais bien connaître le génitif saxon mais plus je lis, plus ça se complique !
Quelques bonnes pages :
-> Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_genitive et un historique intéressant du Saxon Genitive
-> une page "Saxon genitive" de Everything2 - http://everything2.com/title/Saxon+genitive qui rappelle les cas :
En tous cas, voici un site que je ne connaissais pas et qui me plaît bien !- ownership (One easy rule of thumb is that the owner must be an animate being - It is also quite OK to form the genitive with associations of animate beings, like herd, audience, gang)
- it seems that there is a vast amount of special cases. Some of them are:
• expressions of time, like seasons (last winter's snows)
• abstract expressions related to thought and ingenuity (the project's scope was impressive).
• natural phenomena (the earth's rotation but not *the earth's satellite photograph)
- Additionally, it seems that to some speakers choosing a Saxon genitive connotes informality; contrast Milton's poems with the poems of Milton.
- And of course, there is a raft of idiomatic expressions; to get your money's worth, at arm's length, and your heart's desire
Ultimately, the correct usage of the Saxon genitive is a fuzzy concept, with US speakers typically using it more widely, and UK speakers more restrictively.
- The English4ToDay Blog - Saxon Genitive : A Detective Story - http://www.blogs.english4today.com/?p=45
Une chose bien intéressante :
- The English4ToDay - THE POSSESSIVE FORM OF NOUNS - http://www.english4today.com/englishgrammar/grammar/Possesive1.cfmI think if you asked 100 native English speakers what this was you would get 95 saying they just didn’t know and 5 saying that it was the name of a 1930’s fictional detective. I have to say that the answer to the question didn’t jump immediately in front of my own eyes.
(Time expressions / Other expressions / The possessive is also used to refer to shops, restaurants, churches and colleges)
- The English4ToDay - POSSESSIVE PRONOUNS AND POSSESSIVE ADJECTIVES - http://www.english4today.com/englishgrammar/grammar/Determiners6.cfm
- forum UsingEnglish - http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/116477-saxon-genitive.html
- forum WordReference - http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=3634
On peut, encore une fois, voir le sérieux de ce forum !
_________________
Please feel free to point out big mistakes in my messages in a foreign language. Thanks to your remarks, I'll be able to improve my level.
PS: Pls note that I chose American English for my vocabulary, grammar, spelling, culture, etc.
Re: Génitif & Génitif saxon
Hello Gérard, everyone
Is is very interesting and worth reading
I have read somewhere that with time notions, English people more and more use compound adjectives. It was not true in the past You can compare
The hundred years' war and
The six-day war
Is is very interesting and worth reading
I have read somewhere that with time notions, English people more and more use compound adjectives. It was not true in the past You can compare
The hundred years' war and
The six-day war
Dernière édition par MurielB le Jeu 10 Mar - 20:29, édité 1 fois
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Re: Génitif & Génitif saxon
Hi Muriel,
Pls, would you like to remove the "E" from "Everyone" and add one to "english"?
As quoted in my previous post, things change so that Krystyna, everyone in the UK are lost such as :
Pls, would you like to remove the "E" from "Everyone" and add one to "english"?
As quoted in my previous post, things change so that Krystyna, everyone in the UK are lost such as :
I think if you asked 100 native English speakers what this was you would get 95 saying they just didn’t know and 5 saying that it was the name of a 1930’s fictional detective. I have to say that the answer to the question didn’t jump immediately in front of my own eyes.
_________________
Please feel free to point out big mistakes in my messages in a foreign language. Thanks to your remarks, I'll be able to improve my level.
PS: Pls note that I chose American English for my vocabulary, grammar, spelling, culture, etc.
Re: Génitif & Génitif saxon
Hi Muriel, hi everyone,
I like these words I quoted in a previous post (from Everything2): "... fuzzy concept, with US speakers typically using it more widely, and UK speakers more restrictively."
I don't know about the UK but I did have the feeling Americans adapted that saxon genitive to any purpose*.
(*) too bad! I wanted to use a funny expression but there's none in English.
I looked up in my dictionary, here're a few expressions around the French "sauce":
I like these words I quoted in a previous post (from Everything2): "... fuzzy concept, with US speakers typically using it more widely, and UK speakers more restrictively."
I don't know about the UK but I did have the feeling Americans adapted that saxon genitive to any purpose*.
(*) too bad! I wanted to use a funny expression but there's none in English.
I looked up in my dictionary, here're a few expressions around the French "sauce":
- mettre qch à toutes les sauces / to adapt sth to any purpose;
- je me demande à quelle sauce on va me manger / I wonder what's in store for me;
- prendre la sauce[!] / to get soaked ou drenched.
Dernière édition par gerardM le Dim 13 Mar - 13:55, édité 1 fois
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Please feel free to point out big mistakes in my messages in a foreign language. Thanks to your remarks, I'll be able to improve my level.
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Re: Génitif & Génitif saxon
gerardM a écrit:
I don't know about the UK but I did have the feeling Americans adapted that saxon genitive to any purpose*.
Hello Gérard, hello everyone
I have found an exemple when it is imposible for American English to use the saxon genitive : The Kennedy foreign policy(US English) Kennedy's foreign policy (UK English) or The Reagan administration(US English) Reagan's administration (UK English)
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La Lengua es el Nexo de unión,
Sprache ist die Verbindung,
Il Linguaggio è Il Legame,
La Lingvo estas La Ligilo etc.
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Re: Génitif & Génitif saxon
> exemple when it is imposible
example where it is impossible
Thanks Muriel!
Gosh!
Where are the rules then?
example where it is impossible
Thanks Muriel!
Gosh!
Where are the rules then?
_________________
Please feel free to point out big mistakes in my messages in a foreign language. Thanks to your remarks, I'll be able to improve my level.
PS: Pls note that I chose American English for my vocabulary, grammar, spelling, culture, etc.
Re: Génitif & Génitif saxon
Hi everyone,
I tried to ask Krystyna to try to get explanations.
It is very difficult for a native to give general rules:
- first, there're none
- second, Krystyna learned English as a mother language so it's her mother and the primary school who/which taught her... she didn't learn any rules but as us in French, she knows what's right or not just wondering if she already herad or not (again, it's similar for us in French tho in France, we learn grammar more than in Oz, UK and US)
- knowing English too well, she finds exceptions and is reluctant to provide general rules
Here're a few sentences I got from her:
- women's undies, correct
- girl's jeans, correct
- men's shoes, correct
- dog's tail is correct when one speaks about a specific doggy as for one's dog when going to the vet
- dog tails when speaking about dogs in general
-dog's tails is incorrect
- elephant sounds is correct,elephant's sounds isn't, elephants' sounds isn't
Thanks Krystyna!
NB: As shown above, the subject is not simple: there are obvious cases (humans, time) and many controversal/specific cases.
I tried to ask Krystyna to try to get explanations.
It is very difficult for a native to give general rules:
- first, there're none
- second, Krystyna learned English as a mother language so it's her mother and the primary school who/which taught her... she didn't learn any rules but as us in French, she knows what's right or not just wondering if she already herad or not (again, it's similar for us in French tho in France, we learn grammar more than in Oz, UK and US)
- knowing English too well, she finds exceptions and is reluctant to provide general rules
Here're a few sentences I got from her:
- women's undies, correct
- girl's jeans, correct
- men's shoes, correct
- dog's tail is correct when one speaks about a specific doggy as for one's dog when going to the vet
- dog tails when speaking about dogs in general
-
- elephant sounds is correct,
Thanks Krystyna!
NB: As shown above, the subject is not simple: there are obvious cases (humans, time) and many controversal/specific cases.
_________________
Please feel free to point out big mistakes in my messages in a foreign language. Thanks to your remarks, I'll be able to improve my level.
PS: Pls note that I chose American English for my vocabulary, grammar, spelling, culture, etc.
Re: Génitif & Génitif saxon
Muriel, everyone,
if you use an hyphen, you won't have "s" (plural) or "'s" (genitive)
That reminds me of
A 12 years boy (IMHO correct but I don't know if we must add apostrophe to get year's or years')
A 12-year-old boy is correct
It seems to me the National Geographic often uses hyphens (The NG is a model of good American to me).
We could ask Krystyna to comment on this but in my opinion:MurielB a écrit:... I have read somewhere that with time notions, English people more and more use compound adjectives. It was not true in the past You can compare
The hundred years' war and
The six-day war
if you use an hyphen, you won't have "s" (plural) or "'s" (genitive)
That reminds me of
A 12 years boy (IMHO correct but I don't know if we must add apostrophe to get year's or years')
A 12-year-old boy is correct
It seems to me the National Geographic often uses hyphens (The NG is a model of good American to me).
_________________
Please feel free to point out big mistakes in my messages in a foreign language. Thanks to your remarks, I'll be able to improve my level.
PS: Pls note that I chose American English for my vocabulary, grammar, spelling, culture, etc.
Re: Génitif & Génitif saxon
Hi,
LOL I comment on my words
In sentence #2, we've got a singular + a genitive... here as well, we need Krystyna's confirmation as this is weird... it might be "girls' jeans" which would be also plural+genitive (more logical).
LOL I comment on my words
Pls note that in expressions #1 & #3, we've got both a plural and a genitive.gerardM a écrit:...
- women's undies, correct
- girl's jeans, correct
- men's shoes, correct
In sentence #2, we've got a singular + a genitive... here as well, we need Krystyna's confirmation as this is weird... it might be "girls' jeans" which would be also plural+genitive (more logical).
_________________
Please feel free to point out big mistakes in my messages in a foreign language. Thanks to your remarks, I'll be able to improve my level.
PS: Pls note that I chose American English for my vocabulary, grammar, spelling, culture, etc.
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