Re: True English

MurielB Dim 11 Jan - 23:00

Guilaine,Gérard exchanging about that subject was very interesting. I enjoyed the psychologic aspect but also the language one: british versus american words

Guilaine Lun 12 Jan - 15:12

Yes it is an interesting subject and there is a lot to say about it.
For example :
- What about wearing jeans with holes, which is very fashionable.
- Or wearing boots with a mini-skirt in the Spanish summer (40° C).

Still in the subject, but a bit different :

Have you noticed how difficult it is to use your i-phone with gloves in your winter outfit ?
Well, I found special gloves with no finger-tips and a little cover you can put on or not, depending if you need your finger-tips or not to press your keypad.
Clever, isn't it ?

gerardM Jeu 22 Jan - 11:01

I missed these previous posts: how come?? OK I'm going to read them now.

~~

Something I was wondering about and never found a response...

cheers

English-speaking-people say "the nineties, the eighties..." to speak about the years 109x, 198x...
I find this nice and compact and wondered what they said for the years 200x ("les années deux-mille").
Now I know!!
It's "the noughties"! :-)

Wow! Let's call it a day!!

MurielB Jeu 22 Jan - 14:25

Gérard, the word "nought" means "nothing "in American English. The word "noughties" is consequently depreciating for the years 200X.... Am I right ?

gerardM Sam 24 Jan - 17:18

Hi Muriel,
No, I think you are wrong.
"Nought" simply means zero in American but in British En as well.
There's no depreciation, it's only that the last 2 digits all have a nought.

~~

"Noughts and crosses" is the English word of our "morpion" and, as you can see, it roughly says "zéros (ronds) et croix".
No depreciation, no negative idea in the word "nought".

gerardM Sam 24 Jan - 17:28

Hier sur Word Reference, je me suis pris 4 Britanniques sur le dos lorsque j'ai écrit qu'en Américain, on pouvait dire "if you would go..." au lieu de "if you went...".
Comme les Américains n'étaient pas encore levés, je n'ai pas eu d'aide ! LOL
Ils m'ont dit "il n'y a aucune différence, en aucun domaine, entre la grammaire américaine et la grammaire anglaise".
Je n'ai pas trop insisté car cette discussion était hors sujet mais je ne suis absolument pas convaincu !
Certes il y a moins de divergences dans la grammaire que dans le vocabulaire mais tout de même, je ne suis vraiment pas d'accord : emploi du past, absence de "and" dans les nombres, etc. !
Ils me répondaient que cette tournure "if-conditional" était erronée et que ceux qui disaient ça étaient des paysans ou des sauvages perdus dans les montagnes !
J'avais beau leur dire qu'il y avait des profs qui utilisaient cette forme, la réponse était : "il faut qu'ils changent de métier !"

MurielB Dim 25 Jan - 6:45

"There's no depreciation, it's only that the last 2 digits all have a nought "

Thanks Gerard.

MurielB Dim 25 Jan - 9:11

T

Hier sur Word Reference, je me suis pris 4 Britanniques sur le dos lorsque j'ai écrit qu'en Américain, on pouvait dire "if you would go..." au lieu de "if you went...".

Gérard je n'ai jamais entendu "if you would go"car j'habite trop près de l'Angleterre mais je demanderai à ma fille qui a vécu 5 ans à New york

gerardM Dim 25 Jan - 18:44

Merci Muriel,

J'ai posté plusieurs exemples sur Le café polyglotte, en particulier, des copies d'écran (donc aucune possibilié d'erreur de transcription de ma part), mais je ne sais plus les retrouver.

Mes correspondants Américains utilisent fréquemment cette forme if-conditional... mais ce n'est ps sûr qu'on l'utilise dans tout le pays, en particulier sur la côte est qui est trop British.
Je suis en train de constituer un dossier et j'ai, en particulier, un PDF résultant des travaux d'une spécialiste de grammaire, PDF issu du site web d'une université (donc, document sérieux de par la qualification de l'auteur et par la longueur du document) qui expose plusieurs cas d'utilisation de if-conditional... je n'ai pas encore tout lu mais il ressort déjà :
- volition
- hypothèse impossible
- politesse poussée
C'est très intéressant !

Bien sûr Krystyna, n'aime pas cette forme (les Australiens sont proches des Anglais pour leur langue) mais elle a parfaitement reconnu la forme "politesse poussée" : "if you would kindly send us the catalog".
cheers

~~ edit
Ils en parlent :
- ici -> http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/53198/could-you-please-vs-could-you-kindly
- et ici -> http://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/search?source=auto&query=if+you+would+kindly+send

MurielB Dim 25 Jan - 19:23

C'est vrai Gérard que la politesse poussée "if you would kindly send us the catalog" me semble tout à fait correcte mais je n'ai jamais entendu If you would go....au lieu de if you went. C'est un peu comme en Français "Les si n'aiment pas les rais,t,t
Mais c'est vrai que les Etats unis sont vastes et il doit y avoir de nombreuses nuances.

gerardM Dim 25 Jan - 19:48

MurielB a écrit:...
Mais c'est vrai que les Etats unis sont vastes et il doit y avoir de nombreuses nuances.

Pas sûr que ce soit un régionalisme sauf pour la côte est qui est vraiment très British.

Je vais voir ça !
Je commence par étudier soigneusement le problème grâce à Google.
Ensuite, j'interrogerai des profs (en particulier la fille de Jeannine qui était maîtresse d'école en Californie et qui est maintenant prof de maths) et ceux que je prendrai en flag !
Je vais aussi essayer d'interroger Carole (une ancienne copine) qui a habité l'Ohio, le Kansas, la Georgie, qui est secrétaire de direction, qui est employée chez Barnes'n'Nobles mais dont la mère est Anglaise.

Bref ! J'aimerais tirer ça au clair car :
- suite aux cours de Norma (Américaine de Boston), j'ai utilisé if-past, then-conditional
- j'ai abandonné l'enseignement de Norma pour me convertir à ce que je pense être l'Américain : if-conditional, then-condit.

MurielB Dim 25 Jan - 20:04

Gérard nous serons ravis d'avoir cet éclairage. Merci beaucoup pour tes recherches !

gerardM Dim 25 Jan - 20:25

Ca prendra du temps ; je rédigerai un billet de blog.

gerardM Dim 8 Fév - 23:07

Hi everyone,

I'm a fan of Word Reference.

Here's an example of a very good thread I read a couple of minutes ago:

> Thread: s'entretenir de quelque chose avec quelqu'un

Bonvent Native language French - France

For me, the translation would be "to discuss something with someone".
Here is the sentence "Depuis sa première visite en 1939, le jeune homme multiplie ses séjours à Lyon pour s'entretenir avec le poéte de ses nombreux projets théâtraux". Which I have translated "Since his first visit in 1939, the young man increases his stays in Lyon to discuss with the poet his numerous theatrical projects". I feel something is missing between "poet" and "his" and am tempted to add "of" so it would become "to discuss with the poet of his numerous..."
Would that be correct?
Thank you for your comments.

Moteur Native language English (British)

It's a pretty good translation, and you don't need anything between "poet" and "his". One of the hardest things for French people learning English is when to leave words out, as English sentences are typically shorter than their equivalent in French.

If I might make a couple of suggestions to improve on what you have written, I would say "to discuss his numerous theatrical projects with the poet", as it is then unambiguous whose projects they are (i.e. those of the young man and not the poet).

I would also use the past tense (if appropriate to the context of the sentence) and change a few of the words you have used so that it reads better in English:

"Following his first visit in 1939, the young man increased his trips to Lyon..."

Alternatively you could write "multiplied his stays in Lyon", which is almost a literal translation of the French, but only sounds OK if the past tense is used.

What is definitely not correct is to begin the sentence with "Since".

I hope that helps.

Moteur Native language English (British)

Just as an added note:

The present tense can be used to describe past events, but this is highly stylistic. Whilst you encounter it occasionally in literature and more often in TV documentaries (when spoken by a presenter) in other contexts it is hardly ever used.

As it can always be replaced by the appropriate past tense, and knowing exactly when and where to use it appropriately is difficult to judge, I would therefore recommend that you avoid it if at all possible.

If you the sentence you gave came from a TV script, then of course you should, in this case use the present tense and say "increases" as you had written !!

gerardM Lun 9 Fév - 16:49

Howdy.

I wrote several times here, about "they" as a singular pronoun to replace he/she when people don't know the gender.

Here is a good discussion (prolly rebuilt by moderators) on the subject
-> EN: they, them, their - as singular pronouns for unknown or unspecified gender

I didn't read it all for now but I understood, there were two schools (possibly English/Americans).
I read something I didn'tknow: in the past -before Latin rules- "they" was the 3rd person pronoun (such as "you" is the 2nd).

Some people embrace "singular they," while others condemn it.
...
active debate among native English speakers

Enjoy.

MurielB Lun 9 Fév - 22:02

Gérard, it is a bit complicated. I have in my mind that "Everybody, somebody, nobody" have a singular verb but if the sentence is recalled with a personal pronoun or a possessive adjective, they, them, their are used (not necessarily he him his)
Everyone was enjoying themselves
Everybody was pleased with the presents they have received.
You told me one day that the English language is not sexist like the French one. In English the masculine doesn't necessarily prevail. Wink

gerardM Mar 17 Mar - 21:30

Hi Muriel, everyone,

Something funny/weird/sad (as you like).

A couple of days ago, Krystyna was informed that Filipino workers were refurbishing an apartment in Paris and that they were speaking English.

She went to meet them. She could see their faces showing they didn't understand a bloody word of what she was saying scratch

She tried to speak French and it was the same result: "pas comprendre !"

She asked again how to discuss with them and the response was, again: in English!

In fact it was necessary to speak bad English Mad

MurielB Mar 17 Mar - 21:35

Hi Gérard !
Yes "English light"or Globish is the language used by more and more people. scratch

It's not very funny and we are all sorry about that !

gerardM Mar 17 Mar - 23:10

Today I had an argument with a couple who parked their car on my parking space.

In the beginning I couldn't understand what the girlie was saying: I guess she spoke her Créole scratch

(they came from the French west Indies).

gerardM Jeu 19 Mar - 0:32

Krystyna may think the French are unable to count.

I already wrote here about "set" which implies more than one in English whereas it's a single mat/pad in France.
Tonight we went to listen to a jazz concert: it was supposed to be a trio but in fact there were 5 of them on the stage! Razz

After the "Set of one" that makes her laugh (such as "une paire d'un objet"), she can do the same with ""A trio of 5"!

gerardM Dim 19 Avr - 10:15

Hi everyone,

English speaking people love this fascinating word. $C\'est vrai!!$

$C\'est vrai!!$
I can't understand why they like this word... Why I'm not an EMT LOL

gerardM Lun 4 Mai - 22:26

Hi everyone,

Listen to this Irish accent speech (one of the characters is Dawn French).

French & Saunders – Three Irish nuns at the Vatican

Dawn French and Jennifer Saunders (with help from Sally Phillips) create three hilarious Irish nuns who are just wild about Pope Benedict XVI, and the Vatican gift shop. Taken from the French and Saunders Christmas Celebrity Special, this skit aired on December 27, 2005 on BBC One. Copyright Information: This video clip is the property of BBC, Dawn French, and Jennifer Saunders.

Bloody difficult to understand!!

MurielB Mar 5 Mai - 22:30

Yes terribly difficult !

Guilaine Mer 6 Mai - 15:48

Good thing we have the photos !

MurielB Jeu 7 Mai - 13:27

Hi everyone ! I have found this link interesting,what about you ?

1. To stand still: remain in place; hold still; remain fixed or immobile
•After all, life does not stand still and new challenges will certainly arise.•To stand still is to move backwards. 2. Abandon : to stop doing an activity before you have finished it
•They had to abandon their attempt to climb the mountain. •The project was impossible to be completed, so we decided to abandon it.
3. To put something to rest: to put an end to a rumor; to finish dealing with something and forget about it
•I’ve heard enough about Ann and her illness. I’d like to put the whole matter to rest.•Let’s try to put this question to rest once and for all. 4. To pause: to stop moving or stop what you are doing for a short time before starting again
•She paused at the door and then left. •He paused and thought for a moment.
5. Cease: to stop something
•We hope the protests will cease soon. •The company has decided to cease all UK operations after this year.•Let’s end this discussion.
•You really have to end this.

7. Discontinue: to stop doing or providing something
•The bank is discontinuing this service.•First the dose was reduced, then treatment was discontinued.

8. To come to an end: to finish
•Everyone wishes the war would come to an end soon.•I was pretty happy that all those problems finally came to an end.
9. Quit: to stop doing something or leave a job or a place
•She quit what she was doing to help me paint the house. •They encourage younger people to quit smoking.
10. To break off: to suddenly stop speaking or doing something
•She broke off in the middle of a sentence.
•Linda broke off, realizing that she was wrong.

https://dynamicenglishblog.wordpress.com/tag/10-ways-of-saying-stop-in-english/